June 2, 2012

Florida Judge Seeks Evidence From Obama

http://www.wnd.com/2012/05/bush-v-gore-judge-your-evidence-mr-obama/


WND EXCLUSIVE
BUSH V. GORE JUDGE: YOUR EVIDENCE, MR. OBAMA?
Schedules hearing on what precedent White House has on 'natural born citizen'
Bob Unruh
May 31, 2012

13 comments:

Anonymous said...

The court will in the end rule, as four state courts and one federal court and at least two appeals courts have ruled--that the meaning of Natural Born Citizen comes from the common law and includes all the US citizens who were born in the country. The meaning refers to the place of birth, not to the parents.

And Obama's birth certificate from Hawaii, confirmed repeatedly by officials from both parties and by the birth notices in the newspapers, shows that he was born in Hawaii, which is in the USA.

Diogenes said...

Your argument refers to "native born" citizens. "Natural born" is a different matter as discussed briefly in the article. The matter at issue is not where Obama was born, but the validity of the birth certificate. Newspaper notices are not evidence. In 1961 in Hawaii all hospital births were identified by long form certificates. According to researchers Obama was likely born at a private home and then a notice put into the newspaper which required no substantiation. If all is as the White House says why did Obama, spend over $1 million to prevent revealing his birth certificate? There are other issues which remain unanswered by the White House.

Anonymous said...

The Hawaii birth certificate itself is the evidence, but some birthers claim that it does not exist.

However, three things confirm that it DOES exist:

(1) the statements of the officials, both Republican and Democrat;

(2) The "Index Data"--a publicly available volume that has been available for years and that shows that there is a birth certificate for Obama listed under the 1961 entries, and

(3) the birth notices in the Hawaii newspapers.

The thing about the birth notices is that they appeared in a section of the paper called "Health Bureau Statistics." And, as the name implies, in that section the listings came only from the DOH of Hawaii, and the DOH of Hawaii at the time sent out the birth notices only for births in Hawaii. The newspaper birth notices exist in the microfilms of multiple libraries.

Thus the existence of a birth certificate in Hawaii has overwhelming confirmation.

Birther "experts", have claimed that Obama's birth certificate is forged. But are these impartial people, people who like Obama who have merely noticed that there is something wrong with the image of Obama's birth certificate? Or, are they strong and zealous enemies of Obama, willing to say anything to make him seem evil?

The latter is what the National Review, Ann Coulter, Glenn Beck and Bill O'Reilly feel. And, on the other side, there is at least one Tea Party member, John Woodman, who dislikes Obama intensely, and yet who says that the claims that Obama's birth certificate was forged are all phoney.

There are about six other experts who say that the claims by the "experts" quoted by WND and the Sheriff's posse are all phoney. (Want me to quote them?)

Thus, there is evidence that Obama was born in the USA, and discredited evidence that his birth certificate was forged. NO official believes the Sheriff. Romney doesn't. The Secretary of State of Arizona (a conservative Republican) doesn't. No member of Congress is calling for an investigation.

Moreover,the "born in Kenya" myth is entirely made up. Obama's Kenyan grandmother never said that he was born in Kenya. She said that he was born in Hawaii in the taped interview. And she said that the first that her family in Kenya had heard of Obama's birth was in a letter from Hawaii in another interview. Birther publications have simply not quoted the latter interview and quoted only parts of the former.

Anonymous said...

Continuing:



Re: "In 1961 in Hawaii all hospital births were identified by long form certificates. "

Yes, and in fact Obama has shown that long form birth certificate. The only difference is that it was reprinted on modern security paper, using modern photocopy techniques and with a modern official's signature on the document. The rest is a photocopy of the original. The current director of health of Hawaii stated that she saw the original being photocopied onto the security paper to make the official physical copy.

Re: "According to researchers Obama was likely born at a private home and then a notice put into the newspaper which required no substantiation.."

The "researchers" are both biased and wrong. As I have said, the section of the newspapers was called "Health Bureau Statistics"---and only the notices from the DOH went into it, and the DOH at the time only sent out the notices for births in Hawaii. Obama's published birth certificate, which the officials have repeatedly confirmed, says that he was born in Kapolani Hospital, not at home.

Re: "If all is as the White House says why did Obama, spend over $1 million to prevent revealing his birth certificate? "

Answer. Actually he didn't. Show me a single lawsuit against Obama that simply asked to see the birth certificate or to see documents. There isn't any. Not one case. There were cases that attempted to stop the election or to have Obama removed from the ballot. Obama fought those cases, and won. But he fought to be on the ballot, not to hide anything.

Actually, like the claim that Obama's Kenyan grandmother said that he was born in Kenya, the claim that Obama spent $1 million (some have said $2 million) is all made up.

Now that I have shown that Obama's birth certificate does exist and that it says "born in Honolulu" on it, consider the other side of the story-----the claim that Obama's mother went to Kenya to give birth.

The notion of Obama’s mother, late in pregnancy, traveling alone (WND has shown that Obama senior was in Hawaii on August 4, 1961) from Hawaii where there are good hospitals, to Kenya, where there was Yellow Fever and bad hospitals, and doing so without any INS record of her leaving the USA or any record of her arriving in Kenya—is absurd. And the fact that there is a birth certificate showing that she gave birth in Kapiolani Hospital in Honolulu makes it even more absurd.

Anonymous said...

Re Natural Born.

Native born and Natural Born are different, but all native born US citizens are Natural Born US Citizens.

In addition, US citizens who were born outside of the USA to US parents MAY also be Natural Born Citizens. But there some doubt about the latter.

There is NO doubt at all, none in the slightest, that ALL US-born US citizens are Natural Born US Citizens. That is because the meaning of Natural Born comes from the common law and refers to the place of birth, not to the parents.

“Under the longstanding English common-law principle of jus soli, persons born within the territory of the sovereign (other than children of enemy aliens or foreign diplomats) are citizens from birth. Thus, those persons born within the United States are “natural born citizens” and eligible to be President. Much less certain, however, is whether children born abroad of United States citizens are “natural born citizens” eligible to serve as President …”—- Edwin Meese, et al, THE HERITAGE GUIDE TO THE CONSTITUTION (2005) [Edwin Meese was Ronald Reagan’s attorney general, and the Heritage Foundation is a well-known Conservative organization.]

Moreover, his view was not alone:

“Natural born citizen. Persons who are born within the jurisdiction of a national government, i.e. in its territorial limits, or those born of citizens temporarily residing abroad.” — Black’s Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition

“What is a natural born citizen? Clearly, someone born within the United States or one of its territories is a natural born citizen.” (Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on OCTOBER 5, 2004)–Senator Orrin G. Hatch (R-UT).

In fact, birthers and two-fers tried to convince the members of the US Electoral College of the parents requirement, and not one member changed her or his vote out of the belief that two citizen parents required. Not one. And four state courts and one federal court have now ruled specifically on Obama’s case that the US Supreme Court defined the meaning of Natural Born Citizen in the Wong Kim Ark case and that it said that the meaning comes from the common law and that it includes every citizen born in the USA.

Diogenes said...

That is your argument, not a court decision. The plaintiffs have a different argument which is what this story is about.

Anonymous said...

You said that it was my argument "not a court decision." In fact, it is many court decisions.



Repeat: "four state courts and one federal court have now ruled specifically on Obama’s case that the US Supreme Court defined the meaning of Natural Born Citizen in the Wong Kim Ark case and that it said that the meaning comes from the common law and that it includes every citizen born in the USA."


Also:


Mustata v. US Dept. of Justice, 179 F.3d 1017 (6th Cir. 1999) (children born in US to two Romanian citizens described as “natural born citizens” of the US):

“Petitioners Marian and Lenuta Mustata are citizens of Romania. At the time of their petition, they resided in Michigan with their two minor children, who are natural born citizens of the United States.”

Diaz-Salazar v. INS, 700 F.2d 1156 (7th Cir. 1983) (child born in US to Mexican citizen is “natural born citizen” of US):

“Petitioner, Sebastian Diaz-Salazar, entered the United States illegally [from Mexico] in 1974 and has been living and working in Chicago since that time. *** The relevant facts which have been placed before the INS, BIA, and this court can be summarized as follows: The petitioner has a wife and two children under the age of three in Chicago; the children are natural-born citizens of the United States.”

Nwankpa v. Kissinger, 376 F. Supp. 122 (M.D. Ala. 1974) (child born in US to two Biafra citizens described as “natural born citizen” of the US):

“The Plaintiff was a native of Biafra, now a part of the Republic of Nigeria. His wife and two older children are also natives of that country, but his third child, a daughter, is a natural-born citizen of the United States.”

What makes the third child different from her siblings? Nothing but birth in the USA.

Anonymous said...

There have been MANY cases in which the rulings say that the meaning of Natural Born Citizen comes from the common law and refers to the place of birth. I have already stated that four state courts and a federal court have ruled that way on Obama alone.

Dr Conspiracy has prepared this list of judges who have ruled that NBC refers to the place of birth, and he also points out that no court has ruled that NBC requires two--or for that matter even one--US citizen parent. That is because the meaning of Natural Born Citizen refers to the place of birth.

The list:

Jeff S. Masin – Administrative Law Judge, New Jersey
Clarkson S. Fisher – Superior Court Judge, Appeals Division, New Jersey
Linda G. Baxter – Superior Court Judge, Appeals Division, New Jersey
Philip S. Carchman – Superior Court Judge, Appeals Division, New Jersey
John A. Gibney, Jr. – US Federal District Judge, Virginia
Elaine B. Brown – Indiana Court of Appeals
Terry A. Crone – Indiana Court of Appeals
Judge May – Indiana Court of Appeals
Michael Malihi – Administrative Law Judge, Georgia
Arthur Schack – Superior Court Judge, New York
Richard E. Gordon – Superior Court Judge, Arizona

Diogenes said...

Well, you better send all of your research to the lawyers for the White House so that they can clear this up quickly.

Anonymous said...

This will not be "cleared up quickly."
Why not? Because birthers have the right to keep on suing even though they lose every time. They have the right to do that, and I support that right.

But, what they also do is that every time they bring a lawsuit, like in the latest in Florida, they claim that there is another chance for them to win. Then, when they lose again, they say that the White House put pressure on the judge or that the judge was a traitor.

They have the right to sue, and to keep on suing. But they are wrong on the law, and they are wrong to say when they lose that the judge was under pressure or a traitor. In fact, it is the law. Judges know it. They know that the meaning of Natural Born comes from the common law and includes every US citizen born in the USA.

So, prediction, birthers will lose the Florida case, as they have all the cases before, and in particular the Natural Born Citizen cases in which the courts have specifically said that the meaning of NBC comes from the common law and includes every US citizen who was born in the USA (only naturalized citizens are excluded). And, when they lose again, birthers will claim that the judge was a traitor.

Anonymous said...

Re: "So, prediction, birthers will lose the Florida case..."

And that has turned out to be accurate. Birthers lost the Florida case, and that judge--like all the others--has said that the meaning of Natural Born Citizen was defined in the Wong Kim Ark Supreme Court case, which said that the meaning of Natural Born comes from the common law and refers to the PLACE of birth, not the parents, and that every child born in the USA is Natural Born except for the children of foreign diplomats.

There are now five state courts (Indiana, Georgia, New Jersey, Arizona, and now Florida) that have ruled this way, and one federal court too, and NO courts--not one--have ruled for the birther claim.

Diogenes said...

Maybe the SCOTUS will rule in your favor too. Nonetheless natural born citizen is different from native born. Else the founders would have used the same language for both.

Anonymous said...

http://cityonahillpolitics.blogspot.com/2012/07/fred-thompson-on-natural-born-citizen.html